I am not saying that this is the case for all churches but it is definitely worth a closer look. There has been a lot of discussion on the first century church lately, at least on this blog and it has really got me thinking. One of the greatest advantages they had was the fact that they were the first. No expectations, no programs, not too many traditions…just a mission and endless possibilities to fulfill it. What if we actually put ourselves in their sandals? What could the church today actually look like without any of the preconceived ideas that we take into almost every religious gathering? So let’s dream together for a moment. As we dream let’s also remember that our mission is to lead people to become fully devoted followers of Christ. That is, we are to reach those who have no relationship and assist in strengthening those on the journey. Are you ready?
Let’s start with Sunday mornings since that seems to be the center of all of our church activity. Let’s strip the scene bare for just a moment. Don’t back out yet, perhaps some of these things can come back in the dreaming process but for now we just want a blank canvas.
Here are some the things that no longer exist.
- No more refreshments
- No more ushers
- No more band
- No more music
- No more overhead or videos
- No more sound system
- No more stage lights
- No more preacher
- No more sermons
- No more announcements
- No more corporate prayer
- No more facility
- No more structure
- No more anything…just a bunch of people who want to make a difference for Jesus sake.
So there you have it. No more barriers. Now here is where your active participation in the dream is completely required in order for the dream to have life. Here is what I am asking you to do. Get as many eyes on this blog post as possible. Ask your friends and family to read this post and comment their thoughts on the questions I am about to ask. Let’s all dream together. Now on to the questions…
With everything stripped away, what is missing for us to accomplish the great commission? What would you add to position the church to impact lives with the gospel? If nothing were off limits, what would you do or implement to reach people for Christ and “be” the church?
Let’s get this conversation going…what say you?
I think that the first thing that you would need is simply a place to meet and worship. Have everyone bring a friend. That would get the ball rolling anyway. A simple cd player to play some inspirational music, and a bible for a bible study.
The core of the Great Comission hinges on God’s Word and prayer. As a teacher, I am a firm believer in questioning and analyzing, and it seems to me that people reading and discussing the Bible, praying together, and worshiping somehow – any way they feel comfortable – would be the only things truly necessary to a church like this.
Megan and Amie, great comments. I look forward to hearing more of what you have to say.
Here is a question to keep the conversation moving. Is this any different than our current church structure and is it actually reaching those that are far from God? I’m not saying that it is or isn’t but would like your input.
Another question, if these are the things we see as needed for church, is this something that would be even be slightly interesting to someone who has little or no relationship with God?
Those of you who are reading but haven’t taken the plunge to comment, what are your thoughts?
I think one of the essential elements is the one that still remains when we strip everything else away- a group of people who are sincere about their own relationship with God and about reaching people who don’t have a relationship with him. However we “do” church, there are two big things to consider- how to minister to those who already have that relationship, and how to effectively reach those that don’t.
I would add scripture and music of some sort back in, although I’m not sure I’d add back stage lights and a sound system. I think scripture and music do reach people, if done in a way that is relevant to the people we’re trying to reach. I would add food back in- but not coffee and bagels for people who could afford to eat in their own homes; I mean real food for people who are hungry and can’t afford it and may not even have a home. Where we met would be in the midst of the local community so people could get to it easily. The food could be done before the service, or after, and the people who come would obviously be encouraged to stay with us for the service as well. But I would completely change the whole structure. I would do away with the typical “church” setting (which, even in a non-traditional setting, we try to recreate by turning the theater into a church for the time we are there—lobby, congregation, nursery, etc). I would do away with the “audience” setup where the congregation is the audience and there are a few people up front the rest of the time running the show. I would do away with rows of chairs and arrange things more naturally, the way people would just naturally congregate in a room—clusters or a circle/semi-circle. People don’t naturally congregate in rows, shoulder to shoulder, all facing the same direction. So I guess I would scrap the theater entirely, but I’m not sure what I would replace it with. A big, open room with plenty of space, I suppose.
Why would I change all of that stuff? To try to reach people who don’t have a relationship with God and/or people who are sick of the way church is typically “done,” to reach out to people who have physical needs as well as spiritual ones, and to have a more natural, sincere tone to the whole thing.
I think people who are far from God will be reached by sincerity and simplicity– in meeting together, in worship, in talking about God, in studying his word, in relationships, in community outreach. I think people in our local culture who are sick of church are sick of a couple of different things: the way they may have been judged or ignored or overlooked, and the way that many churches seem to be doing the same old thing. Making the same old thing look a little cooler by adding lights and videos and stuff may not be as effective as scrapping the same old thing completely and overhauling the whole structure and setting.
Okay. I’m done. For now. 😉
Wow, great comments from everyone. I love reading everyone’s thoughts on church and the Sunday Morning gathering. I thought I’d throw out some questions, sprinkled with my own secret recipe of ideas and presuppositions, to further discussion.
The first question really begins with a statement. Currently, we’ve said that our Sunday Morning gathering is to reach non-believers. Following our current line of thought, do we continue to do that? If we do, how would someone who is not a Christian react to a meeting where everyone sat around discussing? Would they feel pressured to contribute to the conversation? Would that be a good thing, or a bad thing? What would a gathering aimed at the un-churched, or out of church, or whatever you want to call them, look like to you?
The second question is liken unto the first: what if Sunday wasn’t the only time and place for a meeting? Assuming that your church could meet anytime that you wanted, other than Sunday, what would it look like? Where would you meet?
Finally, if you answered the first question “yes”, is there a way to have both types of “churches”? Off the top of my head, I can think of churches that I consider to be very strong in discipleship, but poor in community. Or churches that are extremely communal, but lack real evangelism. Can a church be both for believers and non-believers at the same time? Can we disciple Christians while still maintaining our relevance to the real world? Is it possible to reach currently “un-churched” people and still help others get closer to God?
James started this thread off by asking what Sunday morning would look like if you could start over. He further asked what would it look like if it were attractional to non-Christians. I think that a key component of the second question doesn’t lie within the scope of the first. I’ll admit that all my evidence is anecdotal, but from my experience, people decide whether they are going to visit your service based upon their relationship with you, or their impressions of you, and not what you tell them your service consists of.
I think that Cleveland is dying spiritually from the inside out. Do people need a different kind of service? A new style of music? I think those things could be instrumental in helping Cleveland become spiritually healthy again, but first, they need a real church, doing real things for God. Before they ever come to our “service”, they need to see that God has impacted our lives in crazy and dramatic ways…and we’re still fairly normal. (Some of us more than others :P) They need to be invited to church in a tattoo parlour. They need to do a double take when they hear a church being talked about on 96.5 The Mountain. They need to know that the church is filled with, relatively, regular people. In the words of the Mat Kearney song Breathe In, Breathe Out, they need to know that we all bleed the same.
Guess which part is my own two cents!
P.S. This comment isn’t to say that we shouldn’t spend time thinking about our service, I wholeheartedly agree with examining what we do, but only that we should keep those changes in proper perspective.
This whole idea of rethinking church has been somewhat of a preoccupation of mine for a few years, so I apologize in advance for any rambling or potentially heretical statements that may occur.
I guess, before we can decide what would be “effective” in reaching people, we should know who they are. And by that I certainly don’t mean by conducting focus groups or marketing research to find out the best way to package the gospel so that it will “sell.” In the same way, how our church looks – or how we look, for that matter – shouldn’t be an attempt to “sell” Jesus. If there’s anything that people, whether Christian or not, are searching for is genuineness. Reality. What else would explain the fascination with reality tv? I guess people like to see that real people have real problems, whether is the ridiculous drama that is The Real World, or Big Brother, or maybe that they can see someone just like them – regular, ordinary – become a big star and have an impact on people (American Idol). They see people on TV, and they hear artists on the radio that screw things up and have people hate them and get dumped and their parents die of cancer and are hopeful or depressed… it touches them, because good stuff or crap like that happens to them, too. And they connect.
But do they hear that at church? It seems that mostly church tells you how to act, where to go and who to vote for (left and right)… Good Christians vote Republican, Real Christians are liberals, Good Christians don’t smoke, Good Christians don’t cuss… Good Christians don’t have problems.
And where does that leave Joe Regular (or me or you, for that matter)? On the outside, because they’re not perfect, and they know it… so why bother being beat over the head about it. Christianity to them sounds like a list of do’s and don’ts to follow, or a set of principles to live by. And how is that different than anything else out there? It’s just another moral code.
With all that said, I believe it is essential – before any programming or a certain method of bible study or musical style – to be authentic. “Your life sucks? So do ours.” Scripture, after all, is a story, and a darn good one at that. The One who created all you see around you knows your life sucks, and he wants to be a very intimate part of your sucky life.
I guess that’s a good place to start… It’s almost 2.30 and I can’t really think any more.
Well, I believe this discussion is off to a great start. I hope everyone has subscribed to the comments or is checking back often to keep it going. I have a lot of thoughts and questions rolling around in my head that I want to discuss but I don’t think it would work in one comment so I will be commenting regularly on what is being said or implied. Let’s see where this takes us.
One thing that I am hearing is this call to sincerity and real Christianity. It seems that we have a branding problem. Now before you write me off you need to know that we all have a brand. A brand is simply what people think when they hear you name. When people here “church” they immediately have a picture in their mind of what that is. Some good, some bad and many indifferent.
I believe that there are a great many sincere churches and believers in Cleveland, TN. Many of these have non-believing friends who know that they are sincere and yet still will never grace the doorstep of their churches. Is it branding, i.e. expectations? Do they believe that their sincere believing friend is not telling them the whole story about said church? Where is the breakdown? Any thoughts?
I can see the argument for re-branding, and can almost agree with it, as long as we don’t go around saying that we’re re-branding. Because again, this is not a marketing campaign.
Taking the example of the non-believing friend. If they believe their friend is sincere and have no problems there, then maybe the issue is with the church in particular or the Church in general. Maybe there’s nothing there that connects with them… nothing that “grabs” them, in a personal or spiritual or even emotional way.
Like it was elsewhere on this blog, the church historically has adapted to the culture that it found itself in, or to say it better, the church was made up of individuals who were part of a particular culture, which is why the church in rome was different from the church in Alexandria, etc. The idea that all Christians should believe the exact same thing is a modern construction, coming out of the enlightenment where reason conquers all, more or less. There is one truth, and reason will guide us to it, and all other modes of finding truth are irrelevant and inferior. At some point what is written took the place of utmost importance in society, because what is written can be analyzed, dissected, parsed to find every nugget of truth or dismiss it as inferior. In church that leads to “the Word” (meaning the Bible) being the cornerstone of Christianity (thanks in part to Martin Luther… “sola scriptura”). Our lives revolved around The Word, we lived by The Word, we preach The Word and our gathering become centered around The Word. People gather around the preacher to hear what he thinks about The Word, and what he thinks the application of this piece of scripture is for our lives (and this is the only interpretation that can be valid). And so, just like the Catholic church pre-reformation, we are told what to believe, and our churches are built in the same manner… the “Man of God,” “The Word of God” is the centerpiece. And that worked, because society was pretty much the same way.
And then came the postmoderns, who argue that truth is more or less relative, and all interpretations are equally valid or invalid (depending on your perspective). Modernity questioned everything, postmodernity questions the questions. I’m not going to argue about whether there is one truth and only one way to get to it, or if all points are valid, because the argument is moot. It doesn’t matter any more, as far as society goes. And so the church needs to reform again, and we need to look around us.
I’ll probably have more later.
Brandon , excellent comments. We all know that many people have a problem with church in general but what about specific communities of believers that have not yet had the chance to demonstrate whether or not they are just like every other church. Let’s clean the slate once again.
Take a church like ours, this could be true of any church but I can’t speak for them, that is still fairly new. They have done no real “marketing” but have a small base of believers who love Christ and want others to experience him as they have and are. They are serving in the community and have no pretense whatsoever of being perfect or even that close to it. They don’t claim to have all the answers but claim to be following and discovering the answer together. They preach what the Bible says and not what they think it says. Now here comes the question…
What gets non-believers attention? Here is what I know for a fact. It’s not whether the church is traditional or modern. It’s not whether it meets in a temple, a theater or a house. It’s not whether they sing hymns or rock songs. It’s not hindered solely because they have a preacher or more discussion based forum. I have seen very successful churches with each of these traits and I have seen failed church plants with each of these traits. So what is it? Most importantly, what is the non-believer in Cleveland, TN looking for? I think we already have a good idea what they are “not” looking for.
I wrote something along these lines in a blog post before, but it seems relevant now: It seems to me that if you are a person who has been hurt by Christians or if you’re bitter toward the church, the last thing you’re going to be receptive to is yet another Christian coming along and trying to talk you into coming to yet another church service at yet another church. Even if the person inviting you is a sincere friend, and even if their church really isn’t just like every other church, you have an idea of what “church” looks like, and it has been colored by your past experiences.
I think the non-believers that are looking for something, are looking for sincerity. I don’t think they want to feel as though someone is just interested in them to try to “get them in the church doors” or “win them to the Lord;” I think they would be much more interested someone who wants a real, honest, authentic relationship with them, outside of a church setting. Someone who will get to know them, talk with them, eat with them, help them when they’re in need, build an authentic relationship, love them without hesitation. I think a lot of times people end up feeling like a project instead of a real person who is really loved.
Jenny, I totally agree with you. Way back in the misty recesses of March 2007, I wrote about the same topic here and then here. I don’t think that Jesus looked at people as “projects”, but as people who really needed a relationship with God, whether they knew it or not. Recently, one of my friends mentioned in the above posts came to church, and has been coming semi-regularly as his work schedule allows. He’s still not a Christian, heck, I’m not even 100% sure he even believes in God, but he believes in what we are doing enough to help us tear down and setup everything in the theatre. From talking to him, I think he’s been drawn back by several different things:
He’s lonely. Everyone at church speaks to him, talks to him, and a few people call him up to see what he’s up to or to hang out with him.
He thinks something is happening at LifePoint that’s worth getting involved in. He told me that he wasn’t sure what it was…but he felt something.
The Holy Spirit is working on his heart. Big time.
Now, I know that these things don’t apply to everyone who’s “un-churched” in Cleveland, but maybe some of the things do. I know that the next time this friend comes to church, I’m going to be busting my butt to get as many people to talk to him as possible, and to get more people from the church to hang out with him during the week. Not because I think that he’s a project, but because the more he feels connected to us, the easier it’ll be for him to connect to God.
Kevin- I want to offer my perspective on the questions you asked in your first comment.
I generally think of Sunday morning (or whatever day/time our main service is held) as being more for reaching non-believers, while small-group times are more for believers. However, I think a balance is absolutely necessary; I would never, ever suggest that services are strictly for reaching non-believers and small groups are strictly for believers. I see a place for discussion in both a service and a small group, but I think of a small group as being more discussion-based than a service would be. I definitely think a church can be for believers and non-believers at the same time—but a lot of churches I have personally encountered feel more like they are for believers. I think part of “discipling Christians” is, in fact, reaching out to non-believers and maintaining relevance to the real world. I think it all goes hand in hand.
I’m intrigued by the idea of moving the main service to a different day, because I think that could be another part of the “same old thing” that could be changed. What day we meet really isn’t something I have personally given much thought to, probably because meeting on Sunday is how I’ve always done it and that’s just what I’m used to. 😛 However, I see the practicality of meeting on Sunday, also—people are probably less busy on a Sunday than they are on weeknights.
The church in Corinth apparently didn’t wear clothes either. I don’t see any evidence of it in scripture. I think that we should all go to church naked from now on. Wait! We can’t go to “church,” so we should all go to the designated house of meeting in the nude, whenever or wherever it is that the Holy Spirit has guided us all, at the same time, to meet. Perhaps some people have been munching on some coo coo nuts recently. I wonder if this whole debate would fall into the whole “non-essentials” category. It is just a bit legalistic to think that God does not allot His people the freedom to worship Him and have a relationship with Him in the way that best suits each individuals personality. As long as we believe the things that are truly important, and that got us our salvation to begin with, won’t the rest kind of work itself out with a little fear and trembling or something like that? I don’t read a history book and think that the only things that happened during the era it describes are what is contained within that little book. Why can’t we allow a little room for some traditions and order that were not necessarily written in the text. As long as it lines up with the overall picture of what salvation truly is, then why in the world are we trying to tie people’s hands?
Jessa- I’m not sure I understand what you mean. Are you saying that it is tying people’s hands or being legalistic to discuss the best ways to reach the people we are trying to reach, or to examine what people in our culture are looking for spiritually? Or are you referring back to the book Kevin posted about that claims to have the best way to do Christianity?
I’ve mentioned this to James, but perhaps it’s a good idea to mention it in this conversation too: While I think I know what would be most comfortable for ME, my own comfort is not what is most important to me; my goal is to reach other people. So if the thing that reaches people most effectively at this time, in this place, is not what makes ME most comfortable– that’s fine. Because I care more about reaching people who have no relationship with God than I care about what style of church or service or worship would make me most comfortable.
There are some good thoughts on this post, but I’d like to look at it from a different angle.
I’d like to throw in an analogy here. When I was single, there were certain ladies that I had plenty in common with and others I did not. Some of these women were in my “league” and others simply were not (no I’m not talking about looks here folks). Those I was more attracted to I spent a considerable amount of time with.
There was something else I would do, though. I would spend time looking nice. You know, grooming more, wearing cologne, taking a more fervent interest in the lady. In other words, I was making myself “dateable”. We’ve all done this. In effect, what I did was market myself to the woman. I wanted her to know that I was what she was looking for in a man.
Now on to my point. All of us Christians believe we are called to win the lost, right? I think we can all agree that each of us can win others to Christ, but we’re probably better at it with certain people than everyone in particular. For example, I’m not “down with the street” and probably won’t be leading any inner city folk to Jesus anytime soon. These kind of people just aren’t in my “league” so to speak.
The events of my life (family life, hometown, etc.), my likes and even my dislikes help put me on common ground with specific groups of people. These people are more “attractive” to me and the Spirit of God inside me. He will use me to minister to these people more effectively than others.
But here’s the kicker: When I was dating, even though I was prettying myself up a bit, I was genuinely attracted to the woman. I cared about her and genuinely liked her.
I have to be the same for the lost around me. I have to actually care about the person. Then, I have to make myself (and more importantly, Jesus in me) “dateable” or attractive enough for the person to take an interest in the gospel. I’m marketing Jesus! In effect, I want this person to know that He is what he/she is loking for.
It doesn’t stop there, though. When I finally met the beautiful woman who became my wife, the “dateability” only took me so far. I had to actually commit to her and her needs. This isn’t a marriage lesson so I’ll leave it at that. You get the idea. I was now responsible for this person God gave to me.
Likewise, each Christian needs to commit to the lost person they bring to the Lord. Each of us is responsible for that soul – NOT OUR PASTOR and NOT OUR CHURCH! When we leave it up to the “institution” of church to commit to the person, he or she will inevitibly leave hurt and unfulfilled. But when I actually care, commit and take responsibility for this person’s soul, he or she will grow because someone is willing to make this thing work.
I say all of that to say this: It doesn’t matter if you meet on Sundays. It doesn’t matter if you meet in a movie theater or a cathedral. It doesn’t matter if you have a projector screen or not. What matters is are the heart of the Christians in the community truly attracted to the lost? If you and I actually care about these people, all of the methods and programs we use are a moot point.
James asked what gets non-believers’ attention. Compassion!
I hope this made sense. I’m a bit tired and I tend to ramble when I’m tired.
@Jenny – I think Jessa is just pointing out that there isn’t one “right” way to do church. She has an odd sense of humor and an odd way of explaining herself, but I love her anyway. 🙂
@Zack – Great post. I totally agree with you.
@Everyone else – What do you guys think?
Zack- I love the analogy. Relying on the church as a whole to do something if the individuals in it are not committed won’t get anyone very far.
Ok, James, your question is “What gets non-believers attention?” I’ve been rambling through rabbit trails and generally venting my own frustrations about church in general. My apologies to the other readers and posters and the servers housing your blog.
As far as the church service itself, I agree with Jenny regarding the seating arrangement, where the focus is on the community, and not necessarily the speaker, whether the particular speaker is better at a socratic method or a more lecture-style. I would also allow space for those who experience God in other ways or more ways than one – such as a time for the artists to draw or write or sculpt, for the dancers to pirouette or whatever it is they do. Not everyone can relate just by hearing or singing or studying a text. Incense and candles could also be used along with icons (in the representation of sacred things kind of way) to create a more sensory experience.
That would be before we sacrifice the virgin.
I have to say that this has been the best discussion we have had on this blog. Everyone has left great comments. I will try and speak to each of the above comments since the last time I wrote and then tag my on thoughts on as well at the end.
@ Jenny – I agree with you completely. Our motivation has got to be what reaches people for Christ, not what methods do I prefer. I wonder sometimes in discussions like these how much what we would like to see in a church gathering comes out over what we think we actually reach non-believing individuals.
@ Kevin – I think there is something there. People are want to be where something is actually happening.
@ Jenny – I agree with your perspective on the “main” focus of both the Sunday gathering and the small group setting. I also agree that both venues can be a place for both believers and non-believers to receive something that they need or are looking for. And as I think you made clear…the “main” focus should drive our methods.
@ Jessa – You are absolutely correct that different methods will attract different people and we can not hold any method sacred. What reaches the people God has sent us to reach must be are first concern and not the practices and traditions people day we can and cannot observe.
@ Zack – Great analogy! We must be attracted to non-believers and be attractive to them as well. The problem with the church both on an institutional level and on an individual level is that we have not been “dateable”. We’ve been the guy that all the girls think is a dork, weirdo or bully but not someone they would want to spend their life with.
Many churches act like the guys who like the idea of having a girlfriend but are really to preoccupied with their friends, hobbies etc. to really commit to a serious relationship. They want to have lots of girls around because it makes them look popular and cool but they don’t really care about any of them.
@ Jenny – You are absolutely correct. The church as an institution is a resource to the church as individuals. It can both be wasted and utilized. It’s a team effort and both sides must do their part.
@ Brandon – I don’t know how much a community oriented seating arrangement and twirling dancers will get the non-believers attention in the way that we would like. I am kidding of course. As someone coming into a strange and new environment I wonder if the all eyes on everyone approach would be more intimidating in the long run.
I absolutely agree with the idea of allowing or creating other opportunities for expressing worship. I believe if done right that could be very compelling to non-believers. I am aware of a couple churches that have at least artist paint this huge picture during the entire service that encompasses the spirit if the day. I think that’s awesome!
Of course, I still don’t really know how much of these ideas are our “church preferences” and how many of these are “unchurched motivated” but it’s a great conversation none the less.
Here are my closing thoughts on the comments so far. I just want to reach people who are far from God and I don’t care how “unorthodox” or “taboo” I have to be to do it. I want all your help to to fulfill this passion. so with that in mind…
What crazy thing would you be willing (or unwilling) to do for that sake of reaching people for God? Any ideas? If you are willing to share the “unthinkable” I am willing to consider it’s impact. Let the dreaming begin…again.
James,
Hope I’m not too late to throw in my “two cents”… I read your original blog at the top of your post and had to laugh-that is church how I have had it for years! As you know, I’ve not been able to attend a church of my choice for several years, and so I have not had the privelege of refreshments, sermons, and overheads. These are times when I look forward more than anything to be with my Christian friends. The times such as when you and your wife would drop by, and we would have dinner or hang out together (okay, so I’ll give you refreshments!). Inevitably, our conversation would always turn towards God and the things He was doing in our lives. I know, for the most part, I kept quiet during those times, but you have no idea how much I cherished those times, and how they always left me refreshed and encouraged in my walk with God! That has been my church! More than any Bible Study, teaching tape or worship CD. Where we could share what we were learning together. I have had more personal growth through those conversations, and those I have had with other Christians.
I came to the conclusion a long time ago that we can have no relationship with God unless we have relationships with others, for it is in our relationships with other people that our relationship with God is manifested. I don’t believe our relationship with God was ever to be between “just Me and God”, but me, God and others, this relationship moving left to right as well as up and down. Divine revelation is wonderful, but wouldn’t most admit that it is through others that we learn more? To me, that is a thriving “church” full of growth!
Now, my thoughts on reaching the lost: I think when most people think of winning the lost, they seem to think of a whole sea of people just waiting to be reeled in. That we just have to “manufacture” a huge net, such as a new program, or new sermon, or other mechanism, and just sweep them all up! I have to disagree. I really doubt that most people are equipped for “mass fishing”, but I believe all of us are capable of a rod and reel. Just as when you go fishing, you throw the line out there, and you wait. The fish in the pond usually need some time to get used to the line being there before they bite. I believe that is how we work. We have our faith, our belief system, in place, and that is our rod. And by making relationships with others, they get to know us and what we believe and what we stand by. After a while, when they see your steadfastness, they take a bite. What I have seen from the “secular” world, is that people are searching for something real, and not a gimmick (which we all know and have said for years). I believe the best way to win the lost is one soul at a time, by relationship building. What you win people with, you have to keep people with. If you come up with some fancy boat to win the lost, you had better keep that boat up, or at the first sign of deterioation, they will leave. If you win the lost by building solid, lasting relationships, you’ll keep them with your solid, lasting relationships. And with that said, that’s not something that just the pastor or the church structure can do.
@Hollie – I think that you’re definitely on to something. Too many times we place our spiritual growth (and those of our friends) onto the church instead of taking responsibility for ourselves (and our friends). The church has cultivated a mentality that stresses “following” and “spoon feeding” , instead of a “leading” and “learning”. We <3 Hollie. We <3 everyone's comments too.
James- You ask what crazy things I would be willing to do. I think a lot of what I’ve already said would also be an answer to your question, because I know a lot of these ideas are not necessarily the “norm,” and I think something that is really different from the norm has a good chance of reaching people. Not all people, of course (no traditional OR different way of doing things is guaranteed to reach all people), but some.
As far as other “crazy” things… well, I don’t know if I have any suggestions off the top of my head. I’m interested in reading other responses. Like you, I don’t care how unorthodox or taboo I have to be. However– and I’m sure you’ll agree– I would not be willing to cross the line into things that are obviously sinful (and I’m referring to black & white issues here, not gray areas).
If you smoke cigars during morning worship, I’m in.
(I’ve only had time to read the original post and not all of the threads, so excuse me if I repeat any ideas.)
-Some Non-Linear Ideas on Above-Mentioned Themes and Suggestions-
I believe a sometimes fatal flaw in the design and intention of the church and specific gatherings is that they advertise themselves to non-believers and the unreached as “non-traditional”, unconventional, etc., while at the same time adhering to completely traditional and conventional archetypes and paradigms (or, rather, ONE paradigm: one main speaker, corporate prayer, corporate worship, non-interactive congregation, and a strongly structured meeting time/place/event order.) I’m not bashing the traditional style of “church”. By all means, it’s worked swimmingly for the last couple millennia.
What we have to work to discover is what the outsider is seeing, and, most importantly, what he or she is looking for. The people we find most often inside church walls are the ones who come with the expectation of the classic (pastor, music, prayer, etc.) church set-up, regardless of the presentation style. The people not coming in are (including, but not limited to) the ones who are either disinterested in, feel a disconnect to, or who have trouble finding relevance in the Church.
I feel the fatal mistake in the Non-Traditional Church’s mission to be such is that they present themselves as a fresh, new product, when, in fact, all they have done is presented fresh, new packaging on the same-old, same-old.
If we wish to be a New Church, and to break loose of the classic structures and stale paradigms, we have to rebuild ourselves and present ourselves as a new product. The masses aren’t always as blind as we think.
-hypothetical-
Imagine that we, as a church, didn’t limit our meetings to the church walls. What if we met on a cafe patio. No preaching. Completely interactive dialogue (with some guided discussion). We keep things nice and open, inviting others to sit and join the conversation. Folks can come and go as they please.
My dream would be to make religion and faith an integral part to everyone’s lives. I feel the best way to accomplish this would be to make it more accessible to outsiders without making them afraid of immediate change or compromise to their everyday lives. Besides, how many non-Christians know how easy is really is? Let’s show them.
I hope this conversation keeps going. I am enjoying everyone’s thoughts. Sorry I haven’t had a chance to comment for a few days.
@ Hollie – I agree with you completely. I believe that the “Christian” walk is about our relationship with God and how that impacts our relationships with other people. I also agree that the most effective way to reach people who are far from God is one on one. I see the church as an “institution” as a resource or aid to the church as an “individual”. The Sunday morning service is a tool to present the spoken gospel to enhance the already living gospel. Together you have a perfect partnership in Christ.
I also love it when we get together and hope we continue you to do it but I also pray that as you and Zack embark on your new freedom that you will be able to find a church family that will no doubt benefit from your participation. In fact I am a little jealous of whoever gets you. 😉
@ Jenny – As I said at small group last Thursday I think we have the possibility to experiment with both the larger public gathering of a programmed service and the intimate conversational setting of the circular format. Each has there strengths and weaknesses so it shall be interesting to see what happens.
@ Brandon – I don’t have a problem with it but I am pretty sure it is against the Tennessee state laws.
@ Stuart – I think you have said it well as far as restating the reason for this post. How do we “be” and “show” that we are different? I feel like we are already doing what you described. Meeting at a home on Thursday. Books-A-Million on Saturday morning and wherever else. I think this happens everyday with most fully devoted believers but I am not so sure how well that is working to bring non-believers into the conversation.
What other radically sincere ideas can we come up with to make an impact?
This is a tough question to answer; we’re so used to doing things a certain way that it is difficult to come up with something “outside the box,” so to speak. I think a good place to begin is to look at who Jesus spent his time with and try to do the same. Who are the people in our culture that no one wants to be seen with? Who are the people that are typically rejected by the church (and, depending on the issue, by society in general)? Who are the people who are hurting and struggling and need love and compassion? We’ve already discussed meeting in a bar, and I think that’s a fantastic idea. I can think of a few other examples off the top of my head that many people are unwilling or afraid to associate with, that have been vilified by the church and sometimes society in general. To name a few: the homeless; homosexuals; sex offenders. There are many more, but these are examples of different “groups” of people that church people often label, look down on, keep at arms length, or are even disgusted by.
Greetings to ALL of you from Rochester, NY! I have been reading/observing this site and comments since before your 1st theatre opening. Nice site! I have a beautiful 26yr. old daughter, Sarah, living in Benton, TN, who seems to think only old-fashioned Baptist churches exist down there. So I have you to introduce her to. She is a senior raft guide/trip leader at a local rafting co.; a great mission field with many people thinking they are at the ultimate with living water.
I would love to have her connect with you guys. She has no computer at hand, but if someone would like to call her and welcome her to a Bible study/or Sunday gathering….e-mail me, I’ll e-mail you back with her cell phone for you to call her. She is aware I am writing you….she also needs directions if contact is made.
THANKS!
Love,
a Mom
In order to not hijack this thread, I have posted on my own blog.
http://banderson81.blogspot.com/
I welcome anyone to stop by and please leave your thoughts.
Sometimes simply obeying the spirit whenever He prompts is the answer to every question. Its never cheesy,arrogant,or forced.Isn’t it He that promised to fill our mouth? No p.a. is necessary. The most memerable moments of witnessing found thier way into my life quite unexpected. I love you, Angela, Zack, Hollie and Jenny.If you know who I am write me.
Ray and Lorrie.
This is such a great topic.I have been thinking about it since reading this blog. I want to add to what I have said, possibly for more clairity or maybe just so what Ive said won’t seem egotistical. The desire to reach the lost is obviously God ordained. As christians in this time, we must not be overly preocupied with being different from those who have come before us. We must reach into the heart of God that resides in us and bring forth Jesus into an earth dying to meet Him. He is the way, the truth, and the life. The people I know that refuse to attend service say they will not go because of the hypocracy. This reasoning cuts me to the quick because I am probably the hypocrit they are speaking of. They long possibly, unwittingly, to know the truth. Let me give an example of what I am talking about. I go to service and listen to the minister and because I am a good christian ,I give each week into the ministry. Sounds great doesn’t it? I am the congregation member many would like in their church attendance. Here is the irony in my statement, the service I attend is serving no one. The minister ,which means servant, is self serving and sewing is to be done where the need is greatest in people’s lives.We are to be good stewards of what God has given to us and to sew where there will be a great harvest, not just to the place we attend, blindly hoping it will somehow bring glory to the lord. To take it a step further, what does God find more joy in, an arena of christians packed to the gills to hear a message, or a group of 10 to 15 people volunteering in the name of Christ at the Habitat For Humanity program?
Mark 9:41 For whosoever shall give a cup of water to drink in my name, because you belong to Christ, verily I say to you, he shall not lose his reward.
Christ said He only said what the Father spoke Jonn 12:49-50. If Christ spoke and did the will of the Father, if I am a follower of Christ, what is the Father’s will on the earth?
Luke 4:18 The spirit of the lord is upon me, because He has anointed me to Preach the gospel to the poor; He hath sent me to heal the broken hearted,to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind,to set at liberty them that are bruised,to preach the acceptable year of the lord.
The poor, the broken hearted, the captives , the blind,the bruised,and those seeking the acceptable year of the lord, not my personal adgenda: here is the heart of the lord. The apostle Paul said,” follow me as I follow christ.”If we follow the spirit ,those seeking truth will come with.
Ray, It’s great to hear from you and thank you for chiming in on this very important question. I agree with you that most churches have become self-serving towards the staff or the congregation and forgotten about the community they were sent to. We have, at some point made church about the Christian instead of those who need Christ. These are the ones that not only need Christ spiritually but need him physically as well.
I hope LifePoint doesn’t get caught in that trap, although it is very easy to do because serving as Christ to the ones he is after is messy, dangerous and just plain difficult. I believe whole heartily in filling our services and preaching the Gospel to everyone who walks through the door but not at the expense of offering Christ to everyone who doesn’t.
Good thoughts, Ray, keep them coming.
Hey, if everyone is still interested in keeping the conversation going, I’d like it if we could all brainstorm together a bit:
Why don’t people come to church? I’m not talking about one church in particular; I’m talking about the church in general. We see people everywhere who are hurting, who are struggling, who are crying out for love– but, for some reason, the church doesn’t seem relevant and doesn’t interest them. Why is that? Are we as believers doing a lousy job of spreading the message of love and grace? Is the present culture one that contributes to church services seeming irrelevant to those we are trying to reach? Are we misconstruing the needs of others? This is something that has been on my mind a lot over the past few months, and I’m interested in what others think. I don’t have the answers, but maybe together we can come up with some ideas. What I know is that I want believers to effectively reach the people around us in a meaningful way.
I’m curiouse if the true church is suposed to be relevant and pertinant or ailians in this world.Jesus asked the 12 disciples and the rich young ruler to follow Him. The deciples obviously did and though Jesus loved the rich young man very much, Jesus allowed him to go away. Didn’t Jesus know how to see the lost saved?
Luke 6:22,23+26 Blessed are you when men hate you,and seperate themselves from your company, and reproach you, and speak against your name as evil, for the son of mans sake.Rejoice in that day and leap for joy:for your reward is great in heaven: for in the same manner did their fathers to the prophets. But woe to you when all men speak well of you! For so did thier fathers to the false prophets.
If the world loves us we may very well be false prophets. The reason we are disliked by thoes not seeking the truth is because when light shines in darkness evil deeds are exposed and men love darkness rather than light.
surely we are to love our enemies Luke 6:27, and if we don’t warn the lost of thier spiritual condition thier blood is on us Ezekiel 3:17-18, But pointing out my sinfull condition is a painfull thing to me unless the lord has already been knocking at the door of my heart. Jesus said that if the world hated Him they would hate us for being His, but we have been fighting thoes words for centuries now because it hurts to be hurt and we love to be loved. Jesus always said follow me not let me follow you.
Hey Ray, thanks for the comments.
I think there should be a difference marked between changing our message to make it relevant, and presenting our message in a way that our hearers can understand. When Jenny talks about the church being irrelevant to people’s lives, she doesn’t mean, at least I would wager, that the church’s message, or Jesus, or any aspect of the Gospel itself is inadequate, but that the church’s presentation of the Gospel has been so off-target that it has created a wall between the lost and Jesus. Not only do we expect people to follow God’s commandments, but we tack on a few extra of our own. We tell people how to dress and talk. We tell them what kind of music they can listen to, and what kind of television shows they can watch. We just keep piling on and piling on until even we can’t distinguish between our law and God’s. Then when people don’t live up to our expectations, we run them through the ringer and tell them that they don’t deserve God’s forgiveness. Sadly, I’ve been in a lot of churches that perpetuated this problem. These churches aren’t filled with evil, satanic people, they just don’t understand that you can say the right thing in the wrong way.
When I think about the church being relevant, I don’t mean that we stop telling people about the cross, or the repercussions of their current lifestyles, but that we find the right way to tell them. A way that they can understand. Jesus did the same thing, except he called them parables.
@Jenny – Those are great questions and I look forward to hearing some of our readers responses. I will wait a bit before I chime in on some of them.
@Ray – You bring up an interesting perspective on the issue and I am going to do my best to address them. I am of the understanding that to be relevant and pertinent in the context of our discussion merely means to relate to our culture. Jesus certainly did this as he ate with the sinners and tax collectors even though the Pharisees questioned his relevancy (Matthew 9:10,11). Jesus’ use of common parables to teach spiritual truths is another great example of this. Paul shared and demonstrated this sentiment on numerous occasions (Acts 17:23, 1 Corinthians 9:22 to name only a few).
I would be careful with that passage in Luke to make the case that we ought to be hated by all for Jesus’ name sake because I don’t believe that we are of the opinion that all rich people will have no other comfort than their wealth. I think most of us would say that it depends on the rich person’s heart and actions. The same could be said of those who are hated for Jesus’ name sake. It depends on their heart and actions.
On that note, most of the unchurched people I have had this discussion with say that they don’t have a problem with Jesus or God, just the church and Christians. What do we do with that in the context of Luke 6? I am not saying that there won’t be times that we are hated while doing what Jesus asked us to do but I don’t believe he was saying that it was the only outcome.
I also wonder if we have taken on more responsibility than Christ gave us. Jesus instructed his disciples to teach people to observe his commandments but not necessarily to call out every person’s sinful activities. Of course that will be brought out but Jesus said that the Holy Spirit came to do this (John 16:8). Jesus did call out sin but notice that it was usually towards the Pharisees (the church of that time). Paul also confronted sin all the time throughout the New Testament but he was also writing only to the churches in those respective areas. From this I think Christians have a responsibility to confront one another when we are allowing ourselves to be enslaved again by the sin that Christ set us free from but that the Holy Spirit will confront sin in the world. I don’t have to point out the darkness, only shine the light.
I realize that not everyone would agree with me so I am more than willing to discuss it further. I just see more evidence of Jesus loving people out of darkness than judging them out of darkness and in our culture today that is pretty relevant.
“When Jenny talks about the church being irrelevant to people’s lives, she doesn’t mean, at least I would wager, that the church’s message, or Jesus, or any aspect of the Gospel itself is inadequate, but that the church’s presentation of the Gospel has been so off-target that it has created a wall between the lost and Jesus.”
Yes, Kevin, that is exactly what I mean. 🙂
Whether we call it relevance or call it something else, the point is that if the church is not reaching people in a meaningful way, in a way that shows them the love and grace of God, then we need to ask ourselves what we are doing wrong and try to fix it. The church can come off as legalistic and judgmental; that generally does not reach people. Likewise the church can come off as super cool and fun and exciting– but often that will not reach people either. The people who are hurting, struggling, and looking for something real may not be attracting to either an ungraceful attitude by the church OR a church that is more of a feel-good party with some cool music but no message that reaches them. And this is what I mean by relevance– if we truly want to reach people who are far from God, we should probably do a better job of delievering God’s message and showing his love and compassion. It’s not about making lots of rules, it’s not about watering down the message, it’s not about what version of the Bible we read, it’s not about the style of our music, it’s not about where we meet– it’s about how to spread the real message of Jesus to those who are aching to experience grace, love, and compassion.
Typo- I meant attracted, not attracting:
“The people who are hurting, struggling, and looking for something real may not be attracted to either an ungraceful attitude by the church OR a church that is more of a feel-good party with some cool music but no message that reaches them.”
Just to prevent any confusion. 😉
One other thing that has been on my mind since I read your comment, Ray- Jesus himself was certainly hated, but not by the “sinners.” He was hated by the “religious” folks of the day, the ones who were bent on following the letter of the law without understanding the heart of it. Yet today many Christians are very effective at turning the “sinners” off while being loved by the “religious.” Many times the world certainly does hate us, but I’m not convinced that the people who hate us now are the ones Jesus meant. You said “The reason we are disliked by thoes not seeking the truth is because when light shines in darkness evil deeds are exposed and men love darkness rather than light.” I am looking at this statement in a totally different way– the religious people in Jesus’ day disliked him because he was exposing their evil deeds and loving on the sinners who were hurting. I think it is imperative that we follow in Jesus’ footsteps. And in doing so I think we will undeniably be hated- not by the “sinners” but by the “religious” who do all the right things but do not get the heart of the message. And since you mentioned the example of the rich young ruler, some who are confronted with the heart of the message may choose to walk away because it just seems like too difficult of a thing to do.
Hey everyone,
First.I want to apologize to everyone if what I said seemed to be on the attack.You all know me and you know this is never my heart to offend anyone.So now,let me take a minute to clarify my comments further.John the Baptist was simply not in the wilderness because of the religious people of the day.His message was repentence and this ultimately cost him his head at the hands of an adulteress ruler.I in no wise am saying that we are to call out people’s sin but simply living a christian life is an offense to those who are not.This may be why there is such a strong pressure to lose your virginity in school.How is that anybody’s business but the virgin’s?Anytime light tries to show itself,there is an automatic front to try and destroy it.Our enemy is the devil and he desires to wipe out not only God’s people,but his own as well.He’s not only content with bringing you to Hell with him,he wants to destroy the life you’re now living as well.I heard the following from Brian Welch,lead singer of the band Korn.He said before he got born again,he had some christian friends who didn’t speak of their faith with him.When he became born again,he was offended that they would allow him to go to hell just so they could be buddies.Light always takes command of darkness.So Jesus’s light is always offensive to those desiring darkness and thus His message is to them seemingly irrellevant in the life of those who purposely reject the cross.So what do we do as christians?In the light of eternity,we preach the cross of Christ all the more.Back to the original question of wiping everything away and starting over,people who have a third grade education and know nothing of history will tell you that they don’t like christians because of the crusades.If we put the name “church” on anything,we’re going to bear the weight and responsibility of what came before us.Whether we like it or not,we’re stuck with the good,the bad, and the ugly of the past.Surely the misdeeds of some of the pharasees made it tough on the early church.Although many may not like it,you and I are the “church”and if you strip away all of the pomp and hoorah,even if it means the loss of our lives,this is who we are.The mirror image of Christ to a dying world.
I have made another post on my own blog, so as not to hijack (again) this one.
If anyone is interested:
http://banderson81.blogspot.com/
Brandon- I think it’s fine to post your thoughts here, too, especially if they relate to the conversation. 😉
What are our motives? Why do we ask questions like “Why is the church ineffective?”
We have all these questions about programs and aesthetics and doctrine and theology… and that is necessary. But too often we seek to find the right answer, when all along the answer may not be as important as the process of asking.
Was Jesus’ mission merely to come, live, die, and then rise? Was the commission to go and convince people that that’s what happened? That’s it? Is all our existence merely biding time until we can get to that moment when we make that decision for Christ… so we can reach the world for Christ? Or, was it to make disciples like…. he did.
Jesus invited people into the deep mysteries of heaven, of God, of life. He invited them into the Wardrobe, into the Kingdom of God. When people came to Jesus with questions, how did he typically respond? One of three ways: A smart-alec response (usually reserved for the religious elites), a story, or another question. Why?
Maybe for Jesus the point wasn’t the point… the point was the journey. The point was the community. Jesus was the Creator created, partaking in creation. Enjoying people where they were, as they were. The Kingdom of God wasn’t coming… The Kingdom of God has come. The beauty of Jesus was that he invited us to become his partners in this creation of the Kingdom of God. The Fall was man pushing away from God, trying to follow his design apart from the Designer. Jesus was God embracing man… reestablishing the fellowship.
How is this different from what we already believe? Good question. Rob Bell asks why in the Hebrew scriptures there is no word for ‘spiritual’ and why Jesus never uses the phrase ‘spiritual life?’ Because for Jesus everything is spiritual. There is no distinction between what is spiritual and everything else. So, then, why is our focus on getting the ‘unchurched’ to be ‘churched?’ Why are we focused on ‘reaching the lost?’ Why are we ‘in’ and they’re ‘out?’ Isn’t our mission… isn’t our Great Commission to love them anyway?
This is a very good question that I think the bible is quite clear on.Yes, absolutely, the answer is clear that we are to love them as Christ Himself did.Christ gave Himself totaly for us when we in no wise deserved it. Love that is felt, thought, but unacted upon is in no way love at all. I believe that I love my wife and children, but if I let my wife starve to death when I could have done somthing about it , do I truely love her? If I let my children run into oncoming traffic and don’t do anything to stop what is about to happen, do I love them? If I allow someone to go to hell and stand silently by, do I truely love them? James said in 2:14-20 that faith without works is dead. If we see anyone in need and can do something about it and don’t, then our faith is in the origional Greek, that of the unregenerate man. Love that is only theory and not action is no love at all. The wording of the great commision is to make deciples and in this you are correct it does not say converts. We should, if we love them like Jesus did, invest our whole lives in them. No greater love has a man than He lay down his life for a friend. In the Great commission however, Jesus told us to do something with our faith and that was to make deciples not simply watch them trod off to hell unawares. Our responsability is made quite clear in ezekiel3:17-22. If we warn not the unrighteous of their sin then their blood will be on our hands.
Well I recon (you like that, I said recon?) If I were to start over from scratch, the bible would still be the measuring stick by which all was judged. The scriptures say not to forsake the assembling of yourselves together. If that were from house to house breaking bread as in the early church, or visiting grandma in the nursing home, or took place in a traditional church setting, the where is less important than the act itself.
I believe assembling ourselves is not only meant to be taken as physically, or in voice through song. I also believe it has no time constraints. I should be touched with your infermities even though we be apart.
So what would I impliment you ask? Testimony, we overcame the advisary by the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony. If I were to attend most any church on a Sunday morning and ask a question of the pastor, would that be considered rude? In most cases yes, but christianity is about growing together as iron sharpens iron. The whole third chapter of Colossians is eye opening but verse sixteen tells us as christians what church is to be. Teaching and admonishing one another in psalms, hymns,and spiritual songs. Where today are the testimonies that make us weep and join together in prayer? What have I learned from the life experience of the people in my congregation? Chances are if they are not in my inner c lick the answer would be nothing.I can not learn from someone I never have contact with, but the bible demands we have compassion one for another,and the word compassion literaly means to suffer with. We are to cry with, rejoice with, and pray with our brothers and sisters and this is truely assembling ourselves together.
First let me say how much I appreciate everyones thoughtful comments. As I read them over I notice how I see most of these things being done in many of our local churches. Some better than others but the basic essence is there. With this in mind I thought I would pose this question from the opposite point of view.
What is currently being done in virtually every local church that should be stopped immediately in your opinion? Any takers?
@Raymond – I swung by and read some of your stuff. I liked it but the only problem is I read and follow so many blogs that have to use a reader to make it easier and less time consuming and cluttered and myspace doesn’t have a way to subscribe in my current reader. When I have extra time and I think of it I will swing by but I wouldn’t expect it much because my available time to visit myspace is next to nil.
@Jenny – Wouldn’t you like to know? If you don’t see us do it at LifePoint it’s probably because I already removed it. In all honesty I believe the thing that mostly happens is that people inside the church feel like the privileged and not the indebted. The thing I desire to change is the idea that the church is for Christians to the truth that the church is Christians given to the world. I think this simple shift in thinking will change everything from how we do Sunday services to how we treat each other every other day of the week. This is brief look at the vision.
@Raymond – I understand your frustrations and I don’t think the issue is always the same or easily recognized. I am going to speak in general as a pastor of a local congregation. I love the people who come to LifePoint. When someone decides to leave I don’t love them any less but I have a responsibility to two groups of people, the lost and the ones who chose to make LifePoint their home. I may bump into them and share a “we love and miss you” and it would be completely genuine. The thing to remember is that they left we didn’t make them leave. The burden of communication falls on the one who chose to move on. This is only my specific perspective and I am willing to concede that.
Concerning you comment on “praying through”. Since you asked what happened to it I will offer some observations. Please do not assume that I hold any of these to be the case, these are just possibilities that various churches may not “pray through”.
1. Some may see it as unnecessary. The bible does not instruct that it is necessary for answered prayer so why spend longs periods praying when God heard us the first time. Jesus kind of made this point in Matthew 6.
2. Disappointment. How many times have we prayed for someone both long and short and have seen nothing happen? You mentioned the faith of the prayer, perhaps they have lost some.
3. Respect for the time that people entrust you with. Visitors come to your church and entrust you with their very limited time. Some may feel that is not the best use of a public service since most unchurched will check out during extended times of prayer.
Obviously there may be many more reasons why people don’t “pray through” as some do and again I am not saying any of these are mine I’m just offering some possibilities.
(You can refer to Mikes comment here: http://verge.lifepointblog.com/2008/01/08/start_over)
@Mike – First of all I think you believe you know my world better than you do. It’s pretty presumptuous of you to know the world in which I live when you have never been in “my” world. So as to remove confusion I will respond to your individual numbered list.
1. In my world I can’t make claims about the sincerity and heart of other churches that I do not attend nor pastor.
2. In my world there are people trying to find faith & God and learn what it means to please him.
3. In my world the church Is Christ’s idea and my responsibility to try and lead it as he has commanded me too. The church institution isn’t broken…people are.
4. In my world Jesus would be hanging out with sinners and tax collectors and because of that so should the church.
5. In my world you can’t make that assumption of every church however we all fall short of God’s best for us…all the time.
6. In my world many people claim this is the case when they have not actually been to “every” church to make such a claim. I believe this is true of many and I would even concede most churches but lets not throw around such closed ended claims.
7. In my world I completely agree. Church has missed the point and the purpose of why Jesus came. This has isolated Christians from the world instead of sending them to it.
Now for your actions points. I will not claim these to be correct or incorrect but simply offer my opinions, which are also not supported in great detail but can be more than substantiated if needed, which it is not needed.
1. I disagree with this premise. I believe the Bible does too. I would also like to say this as a pastor who is not currently paid. I earn my living elsewhere.
2. Whether open mic or simply open discussion, I agree. We grow together and it would only stand to reason that open discussion would facilitate that. That is why we have groups of people that meet all the time for such discussions. Now if you are refereeing to the public service be it on Sunday or any other day I have different opinions. In my experience, and I cannot stress that enough, most people who want an open mic at the main service are people who never really get involved in the lives of the people who attend. They just want a public forum to get attention without doing the hard work of sacrificing themselves for the people. Again, in my experience.
3. Discipleship is huge. I am always seriously praying for God direction on this topic.
Mike, I welcome your comments and the discussion but let’s remember the purpose of this discussion is to fix and strengthen the church and not to tear it down with unhealthy and incorrect claims.
Mike,
First I want to say that I think I understand where you’re coming from. Maybe not, I could be reading you totally wrong, and I don’t know you, so this is just based on your comment and my experience. I think I understand where you’re coming from because not so long ago I could have written a lot of what you did.
I hear you saying that you’ve visited many churches in this area and have found them to be insincere, hesitant to share their faith, overly focused on wealth, and possibly legalistic and self-righteous. And that is definitely a serious problem, if that’s how churches really are, because that is simply not the way Jesus lived or taught others to live. And I do think that there are likely some churches and some Christians who are that way; I’m not saying that there aren’t. But I don’t agree that all are that way; I think there are some people who are different, who really are sincere, humble, and others-oriented.
I have struggled with finding sincerity, but I believe I’m realizing something—sometimes people really are sincere, but they’re imperfect people fumbling around and trying to show it but sometimes failing. I don’t doubt that there are those who are not sincere; but I also think that those who are sincere are sometimes misjudged because they may not always do or say the right thing at the right time. For me, I’ve learned that in forming relationships with people, it becomes much easier to see if they’re sincere, because as I get to know them better, I get a closer look at their heart and their intentions. In the churches I visited—even for years—but never really formed relationships, I had a hard time imagining that people were really sincere, and I think that is at least in part because I didn’t know them. Over the past year I’ve become involved at LifePoint, slowly at first because I was hesitant; I wasn’t sure if the sincerity was there or not, and I was just waiting to find out that it wasn’t and to be disappointed again. As I’ve become more involved, I’ve developed relationships with several amazing people, and I absolutely believe that they are sincere. If I didn’t, I wouldn’t still be here. And I can promise you that I would not say that if it wasn’t true; this isn’t just some meaningless plug for LifePoint, this is me telling you what I really feel. I know you don’t know me, so take it for what it’s worth- but I’m not the type to say something unless I mean it, and I think through my words carefully.
I agree with James that there is Biblical support for the church to take care of its pastor’s financial needs. I don’t think that means that a pastor should make an exorbitant amount of money and live in a million dollar home and drive a luxury vehicle and have every material thing imaginable—nor do I think it means a pastor and his family should have barely enough to get by. I think that it is a good thing for a church to think of their pastor and the work he is doing, and make meeting his family’s needs a priority. I think it’s a good way of showing appreciation, love, and support. I can understand the argument for leadership positions being unpaid on one hand, because that makes it more likely that the pastor isn’t just there for the money and is actually sincere; however, I also think that a sincere pastor doing the work of reaching out to a congregation and the community is more likely to be able to make a difference if he can focus his attention and energy there full-time.
@Raymond – I understand your frustrations and I don’t think the issue is always the same or easily recognized. I am going to speak in general as a pastor of a local congregation. I love the people who come to LifePoint. When someone decides to leave I don’t love them any less but I have a responsibility to two groups of people, the lost and the ones who chose to make LifePoint their home. I may bump into them and share a “we love and miss you” and it would be completely genuine. The thing to remember is that they left we didn’t make them leave. The burden of communication falls on the one who chose to move on. This is only my specific perspective and I am willing to concede that.
James I have known you for meany years and this will be my last comment
@Raymond – I swung by and read some of your stuff.
When I have extra time and I think of it I will swing by but I wouldn’t expect it much because my available time to visit myspace is next to nil.
next to nil time for a friend. Thank you.
What have I learned from the life experience of the people in my congregation? Chances are if they are not in my inner c lick the answer would be nothing.I can not learn from someone I never have contact with, but the bible demands we have compassion one for another,and the word compassion literaly means to suffer with. We are to cry with, rejoice with, and pray with our brothers and sisters and this is truely assembling ourselves together.
James,
Thanks for your response. Too many times harsh comments are ignored. I purposefully posted harsh critical comments. Unchurched people are more critical than my posted comments. Your response shows me how you handle these types of comments at your church.
I wish you well in your church. It is my sincere prayer that Jesus shows up in your church every Sunday.
Mike
I think you know how I’m feeling.
these are your words.
Kevin has also simply been a friend to me when othes had abandoned me. Some for their own good reasons and life situations and others for no reason at all.
Ray, I know you said this was your last comment so I don’t expect a response but I feel this conversation of yours has moved from general talk about church to very specific issues that you are dealing with. My comments about bumping into people who have left the church was not specifically directed towards your situation but a general observation about my own actual perspective in very general instances.
My ability to visit all my friends MySpace accounts is not a reflection of my caring. I don’t get to call them all or visit with them either. If I made it a habit of visiting all my friends MySpace accounts on a regular basis I would spends many hours on MySpace. I am sorry that it isn’t an option for me. If I am aware that you are in need, I am there. Unfortunately I have so many people in my life that the ones who are in the most need and make me aware of it get my time. If that makes me a bad friend…I’m sorry.
You speak of “suffering with” but that is what my whole life is about. And because there is a lot of it I am always busy. If you are going through something and I can help, I want to know but your comment implies that I know something that I don’t. I haven’t seen you in a very long time and have no way of knowing what’s going on in your life unless you tell me. I’m not just a person with a few friends to check in on. I am a pastor who has people pulling on him from every direction. I am doing my best but I many times fall short. For that I am sorry.
I can’t say that all churches are like this, and I’m not going to name any names, but the one I have in mind when I say the following is one of the larger ones in Cleveland, and if you’re on Lee’s campus you can spit on it with no problem. (Not that I’ve tried that)(lately).
Some churches have, or at least seem to exude, a sense of superiority. At this particular church, I was waiting to be herded into the sanctuary, like the rest of my fellow sheep, when greeter – yes, a greeter, complete with nametag identifying her as such – said of a church in Chattanooga, “Well, we’re more spiritual than them. We have church on Sunday nights.”
First of all… good for you. Second of all… how does spending 2 more hours in church make you more spiritual? It shouldn’t have been said, even if you believe it sincerely, and certainly not where anyone else could hear it.
I must have missed the part where church is a competition.
Brandon, you hit the nail on the head. One of the things I would change in the church has nothing to do with how we do service at all. Why can’t we love and cheer each other on for our part of the greater work? Why can’t we stop esteeming ourselves more highly than another?
The reason most people remain outside the church is the attitude that has always been inside the church.